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发表从 Saske, 20.06.2014 - 16:18
Well I was wondering why are me (Eagle), Mauzer and Knez banned? Bug exploiting? First we didnt use it in any important match (Knez used it once, only once in cw), only in 3v3 when we trolled. Syrian can talk crap all he wants, Mauzer didnt use bugs when he rushed Rome, there where just lucky rolls, and he knows it. Second the day we found the bug existed, me and Knez pm-ed Amok telling him everything about the bug, yet we got none response. Azergayjan, r9, told me there was proof that I have been using bugs over a year?!?!?! Yet I found them out 6 days ago??? WTF RLY. Me personally used the bug only in 1 single game, and I used it to take Milan with 2 dest and put a dest in middle of France. U can see it on bug forum. Thats everything I did. Yet I get banned for a week, and as Tops says, maybe we could get banned more???? FOR WHAT MODS? TELLING AMOK THAT BUG EXISTED, YET WE GET NONE RESPOND ABOUT IT?? AND WE USE IT IN FEW GAMES FOR FUN, AND NOW EVERYBODY IS MAD, BAN MK, THEY CHEAT. Many other people know about the bug yet I dont see them get banned. For example Clovis, Mezza, Lao, they all know about the bug, yet I dont see them get banned. I understand they didnt exploit it, but did they report it like we did? Plus we only did the bugs in few stupid games with bunch of low ranks -___-, and yet we get banned. Mods I believe this is your worst decision so far, ban the three of us, one of best aw players... Yet we got no warning not to use the bugs or we will be banned, it just happened out of the blue... If u only warned us not to use it we would stop, but noooo let us be smart obnoxious people, not warn anyone and ban them one day out of the blue. AND WE EVEN REPORTED BUG TO AMOK. I just have 3 words for you mods: SHAME ON YOU!
21.06.2014 - 12:23
Well i never saw that bugs with naval units.
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21.06.2014 - 12:45
What the fuck did I miss?
This is gold.
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TJM !!!
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21.06.2014 - 13:57
作者: Fockmeeard, 21.06.2014 at 11:27

作者: Columna Durruti, 21.06.2014 at 07:23

Well, I guess we all know what is fair and what is unfair. Don't we? Do we really need to "define" what are bugs that may be exploited and the ones that shall remain untouched? Are we really that ignorant?
Abusing transports and other naval units to get to the middle of Spain (or any non-port city) is somehow obvious to be "cheating" the way up. Isn't it?
Using bugs to take walled cities is also something that goes way against the very idea behind the existence of walls. Doesn't it?

Using bypasses with transports or bridging land gaps add to the game and even define the protective counter-measures players have developed. They are beneficial bugs that do not attempt against the original battle logic.

Do we really have to discuss this or isn't this matter quite obvious???


I'm a bit disappointed hearing this from a mod tbh. You claim using naval units to bypass land to get to a capital is a bug that should be banned from use, correct? Or is it only limited to getting to the capital of spain? Because the same bug is already accepted in this community. We all use naval units to cross land to get to a country's capital, correct? We roll over Denmark to hit Denmark's cap, Sweden cap, and/or Poland cap, correct? Whether you're bypassing land in Spain or bypassing land in Denmark, you using the same exact bug, just exploiting a different country.

Also, if these bugs add to gameplay and are great for the community, why haven't they become official? Why haven't these passageways been added to the map? Go ask Tik-tok and Tunder3 and im sure they'll tell you it isn't rocket science to add a couple of canals to the map.

My point is, these passageways aren't public knowledge. Only competitive players and those taught by competitive players know how to use these passageways, thus giving an unfair advantage to those who do not know of these passageways. This is against the rules. is it not? But I suppose since Ivan and Amok let you bend the rules as you please, I suppose it really isn't in your mind then.


HUGE SUPPORT, NAIL THEM FOCK
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21.06.2014 - 14:09
 Acquiesce (版主)
I'd just like to say I can't believe we are even considering describing water passageways as bugs. They are quite obviously distinct from exploits that give players an advantage in ways not intended by the game designers. You are correct that the majority of new players aren't aware of them but so what? New players also don't know about TB or breaking a WF. How much people know about a move/tactic/skill does not at all determine if it is an exploit.
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The church is near, but the road is icy... the bar is far away, but I will walk carefully...
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21.06.2014 - 16:28
作者: Acquiesce, 21.06.2014 at 14:09

I'd just like to say I can't believe we are even considering describing water passageways as bugs. They are quite obviously distinct from exploits that give players an advantage in ways not intended by the game designers. You are correct that the majority of new players aren't aware of them but so what? New players also don't know about TB or breaking a WF. How much people know about a move/tactic/skill does not at all determine if it is an exploit.

Umm no not at all. That is a bug. The fact that we have all accepted it as a feature is a different thing. You said "They are quite obviously distinct from exploits that give players an advantage in ways not intended by the game designers ". Now compare yourself to any new player in the game. Their not knowing the passageways give you a very distinctive advantage in the game. Do you really believe it was intended by the game designers to make it this way. Knowing the passage ways has nothing to do with "move/tactic/skill" of any players. Once someone new to the game knows they exist they can figure out quite a lot of it on their own. It is simply a hack just like the ones we are talking about here. Only difference being that these are something the community has accepted gracefully.

And I also think banning players isn't the way forward. We should try to fix these bugs ASAP before they become a greater problem as I believe that these bugs can be used in ways not easy to catch once everyone knows how to use them.
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21.06.2014 - 16:37
作者: Acquiesce, 21.06.2014 at 14:09

I'd just like to say I can't believe we are even considering describing water passageways as bugs. They are quite obviously distinct from exploits that give players an advantage in ways not intended by the game designers. You are correct that the majority of new players aren't aware of them but so what? New players also don't know about TB or breaking a WF. How much people know about a move/tactic/skill does not at all determine if it is an exploit.


If the admins intended for it to be a passageway. why isn't it a canal like the rest of the passageways on the world map? It is a bug. TB and WF were features intentionally added by the admins.
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21.06.2014 - 16:49
 Acquiesce (版主)
The passageways are legit just the limits of how much stacks can move over land. I don't even know how you would attempt to say which passages are exploits and which are legit, it's absurdity. To compare these to a legitimate exploit that everyone knows is supposed to be fixed by the admins is nothing short of lunacy. Do you know how to attack a walled city? Just by doing it you intuitively know it is a glitch in the game that isn't supposed to be there. The reason no one realized you can move through the islands of Denmark and declared "wow this is a game glitch better report it" is because it's so obviously not. It's common sense
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The church is near, but the road is icy... the bar is far away, but I will walk carefully...
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21.06.2014 - 17:00
作者: Acquiesce, 21.06.2014 at 16:49

The passageways are legit just the limits of how much stacks can move over land. I don't even know how you would attempt to say which passages are exploits and which are legit, it's absurdity. To compare these to a legitimate exploit that everyone knows is supposed to be fixed by the admins is nothing short of lunacy. Do you know how to attack a walled city? Just by doing it you intuitively know it is a glitch in the game that isn't supposed to be there. The reason no one realized you can move through the islands of Denmark and declared "wow this is a game glitch better report it" is because it's so obviously not. It's common sense


You ignore the question once again... Why did the admins not make it an official passageway? The canal in Italy and the Panama canal are all distinctly visible. The ones I mentioned are not. Why is that?
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21.06.2014 - 17:04
 Acquiesce (版主)
Idk which one you are talking about in Italy but as for the Panama and Suez, these are famous canals. Huge geographical landmarks. It doesn't at all surprise me in the least that they were included.
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The church is near, but the road is icy... the bar is far away, but I will walk carefully...
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21.06.2014 - 20:35
Goblin is right
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21.06.2014 - 20:49
Fitzcarraldo did it in the Amazon region... why not in AW?

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21.06.2014 - 21:35
I fucking hate fockmeard, that is all. only a asshole like fockmeard would arghe these points, hes one of those people that just love to argue.
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We are not the same- I am a Martian.
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21.06.2014 - 21:50
作者: Helly, 21.06.2014 at 21:35

I fucking hate fockmeard, that is all. only a asshole like fockmeard would arghe these points, hes one of those people that just love to argue.


I appreciate your pathetic attempt at a personal attack. This was a civil discussion until you decided to drop off your much unnecessary opinion. Go back to the children's room and play with your blocks and toy cars please, let the grown ups talk. Thank you.
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21.06.2014 - 21:59
作者: Goblin, 21.06.2014 at 19:36

Oh my fuckin god i wanna slap everyone who is comparing passageways to bugs. Are you retarded or just pretending to be stupid? ...As acquiesce said ...new players dont know about them ...so fuckin triple what??? I didnt know about walls once i started playing , i learned i didnt know troops can leave air transports but instead directly attacked cities with them i learned , i didnt know about passageways i fuckin learned and i had fun and sense of accomplishment by learning this things. morons compare goin trough walls with that??? Wls are suppose to be unpassable what would be the damn purpose of them if you can abuse a bug ...stop acting stupid people.


Since Acqui seems to be beating around the bush with this question, i'll ask you since you seem to feel strongly about this. If these passageways are indeed not a bug and are meant to be a part of the game, why are these passageways not included in the map? Everybody other than you and Acqui believes that passageways are a bug, just a bug that can be used in gameplay. Since it IS a bug, that is why everybody not knowing about it is a crucial element considering that in the rules, you are not allowed to exploit a bug that gives you an unfair advantage. The only way to keep things fair is if both players know how to exploit it.
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21.06.2014 - 22:29
作者: Helly, 21.06.2014 at 21:35

I fucking hate fockmeard, that is all. only a asshole like fockmeard would arghe these points, hes one of those people that just love to argue.


This comment is pure...evoL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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"In atWar you either die a hero or live long enough to ally fag and gang bang some poor bastards."
~Goblin

"In this game, everyone is hated."
~Xenosapien
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21.06.2014 - 22:32
作者: Spart, 21.06.2014 at 22:29

作者: Helly, 21.06.2014 at 21:35

I fucking hate fockmeard, that is all. only a asshole like fockmeard would arghe these points, hes one of those people that just love to argue.


This comment is pure...evoL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

is everyone gonna do that since i joined evoL lol. Honestly seem like MOU is losing interest in AW and evoL might die dont know yet. Gonna have to talk to him. But im the same player as i was in stalins
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We are not the same- I am a Martian.
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22.06.2014 - 01:52
Did someone say evoL die? Preposterous! Ontopic give longer ban!
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It's not the end.

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22.06.2014 - 04:12
作者: Fockmeeard, 21.06.2014 at 21:59

作者: Goblin, 21.06.2014 at 19:36

Oh my fuckin god i wanna slap everyone who is comparing passageways to bugs. Are you retarded or just pretending to be stupid? ...As acquiesce said ...new players dont know about them ...so fuckin triple what??? I didnt know about walls once i started playing , i learned i didnt know troops can leave air transports but instead directly attacked cities with them i learned , i didnt know about passageways i fuckin learned and i had fun and sense of accomplishment by learning this things. morons compare goin trough walls with that??? Wls are suppose to be unpassable what would be the damn purpose of them if you can abuse a bug ...stop acting stupid people.


Since Acqui seems to be beating around the bush with this question, i'll ask you since you seem to feel strongly about this. If these passageways are indeed not a bug and are meant to be a part of the game, why are these passageways not included in the map? Everybody other than you and Acqui believes that passageways are a bug, just a bug that can be used in gameplay. Since it IS a bug, that is why everybody not knowing about it is a crucial element considering that in the rules, you are not allowed to exploit a bug that gives you an unfair advantage. The only way to keep things fair is if both players know how to exploit it.

Bla..there are plenty players in AW that doesent check forums to listen those sily argues about passageways...Mate dont be mad passageways are
very diferent things than attacking one walled city or putting destroyder in Madrit.The question is one:Will admins care about this bugs that after 1 year come up again or just will let it grow and to end will be like tb or rewall,a part of gameplay?
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22.06.2014 - 04:36
作者: Fockmeeard, 21.06.2014 at 21:59

作者: Goblin, 21.06.2014 at 19:36

Oh my fuckin god i wanna slap everyone who is comparing passageways to bugs. Are you retarded or just pretending to be stupid? ...As acquiesce said ...new players dont know about them ...so fuckin triple what??? I didnt know about walls once i started playing , i learned i didnt know troops can leave air transports but instead directly attacked cities with them i learned , i didnt know about passageways i fuckin learned and i had fun and sense of accomplishment by learning this things. morons compare goin trough walls with that??? Wls are suppose to be unpassable what would be the damn purpose of them if you can abuse a bug ...stop acting stupid people.


Since Acqui seems to be beating around the bush with this question, i'll ask you since you seem to feel strongly about this. If these passageways are indeed not a bug and are meant to be a part of the game, why are these passageways not included in the map? Everybody other than you and Acqui believes that passageways are a bug, just a bug that can be used in gameplay. Since it IS a bug, that is why everybody not knowing about it is a crucial element considering that in the rules, you are not allowed to exploit a bug that gives you an unfair advantage. The only way to keep things fair is if both players know how to exploit it.




So the passageway in Brittany, France is a legit canal.



So the Kiel passageway is a legit canal.



So the passageway in Sweden is a legit canal.

Did I miss any?
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22.06.2014 - 04:41
作者: Meester, 22.06.2014 at 04:36

作者: Fockmeeard, 21.06.2014 at 21:59

作者: Goblin, 21.06.2014 at 19:36

Oh my fuckin god i wanna slap everyone who is comparing passageways to bugs. Are you retarded or just pretending to be stupid? ...As acquiesce said ...new players dont know about them ...so fuckin triple what??? I didnt know about walls once i started playing , i learned i didnt know troops can leave air transports but instead directly attacked cities with them i learned , i didnt know about passageways i fuckin learned and i had fun and sense of accomplishment by learning this things. morons compare goin trough walls with that??? Wls are suppose to be unpassable what would be the damn purpose of them if you can abuse a bug ...stop acting stupid people.


Since Acqui seems to be beating around the bush with this question, i'll ask you since you seem to feel strongly about this. If these passageways are indeed not a bug and are meant to be a part of the game, why are these passageways not included in the map? Everybody other than you and Acqui believes that passageways are a bug, just a bug that can be used in gameplay. Since it IS a bug, that is why everybody not knowing about it is a crucial element considering that in the rules, you are not allowed to exploit a bug that gives you an unfair advantage. The only way to keep things fair is if both players know how to exploit it.




So the passageway in Brittany, France is a legit canal.



So the Kiel passageway is a legit canal.



So the passageway in Sweden is a legit canal.

Did I miss any?

UK passageways to the west part of UK,Italy passageway to both of south parts,estonia pass to this lake,UK pass to east part of UK.
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22.06.2014 - 05:02
作者: Acquiesce, 21.06.2014 at 16:49

The passageways are legit just the limits of how much stacks can move over land. I don't even know how you would attempt to say which passages are exploits and which are legit, it's absurdity. To compare these to a legitimate exploit that everyone knows is supposed to be fixed by the admins is nothing short of lunacy. Do you know how to attack a walled city? Just by doing it you intuitively know it is a glitch in the game that isn't supposed to be there. The reason no one realized you can move through the islands of Denmark and declared "wow this is a game glitch better report it" is because it's so obviously not. It's common sense


If we put it that way, we just found a new passage from sea to madrd.... Nothing uncommon there
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22.06.2014 - 05:06
作者: Meester, 22.06.2014 at 04:36

作者: Fockmeeard, 21.06.2014 at 21:59

作者: Goblin, 21.06.2014 at 19:36

Oh my fuckin god i wanna slap everyone who is comparing passageways to bugs. Are you retarded or just pretending to be stupid? ...As acquiesce said ...new players dont know about them ...so fuckin triple what??? I didnt know about walls once i started playing , i learned i didnt know troops can leave air transports but instead directly attacked cities with them i learned , i didnt know about passageways i fuckin learned and i had fun and sense of accomplishment by learning this things. morons compare goin trough walls with that??? Wls are suppose to be unpassable what would be the damn purpose of them if you can abuse a bug ...stop acting stupid people.


Since Acqui seems to be beating around the bush with this question, i'll ask you since you seem to feel strongly about this. If these passageways are indeed not a bug and are meant to be a part of the game, why are these passageways not included in the map? Everybody other than you and Acqui believes that passageways are a bug, just a bug that can be used in gameplay. Since it IS a bug, that is why everybody not knowing about it is a crucial element considering that in the rules, you are not allowed to exploit a bug that gives you an unfair advantage. The only way to keep things fair is if both players know how to exploit it.




So the passageway in Brittany, France is a legit canal.



So the Kiel passageway is a legit canal.



So the passageway in Sweden is a legit canal.

Did I miss any?


In this picture it shows I can att paris from sea, up in the north. Im banned for that. Why?
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22.06.2014 - 06:50
作者: Eagle_alt, 22.06.2014 at 05:06

作者: Meester, 22.06.2014 at 04:36

作者: Fockmeeard, 21.06.2014 at 21:59

作者: Goblin, 21.06.2014 at 19:36

Oh my fuckin god i wanna slap everyone who is comparing passageways to bugs. Are you retarded or just pretending to be stupid? ...As acquiesce said ...new players dont know about them ...so fuckin triple what??? I didnt know about walls once i started playing , i learned i didnt know troops can leave air transports but instead directly attacked cities with them i learned , i didnt know about passageways i fuckin learned and i had fun and sense of accomplishment by learning this things. morons compare goin trough walls with that??? Wls are suppose to be unpassable what would be the damn purpose of them if you can abuse a bug ...stop acting stupid people.


Since Acqui seems to be beating around the bush with this question, i'll ask you since you seem to feel strongly about this. If these passageways are indeed not a bug and are meant to be a part of the game, why are these passageways not included in the map? Everybody other than you and Acqui believes that passageways are a bug, just a bug that can be used in gameplay. Since it IS a bug, that is why everybody not knowing about it is a crucial element considering that in the rules, you are not allowed to exploit a bug that gives you an unfair advantage. The only way to keep things fair is if both players know how to exploit it.


*image*

So the passageway in Brittany, France is a legit canal.

*image*

So the Kiel passageway is a legit canal.

*image*

So the passageway in Sweden is a legit canal.

Did I miss any?


In this picture it shows I can att paris from sea, up in the north. Im banned for that. Why?


Yes you can but you can't in game because this passageway is not in the game this is AtWar by the way not CanalWar.
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22.06.2014 - 07:00
作者: JUGERS2, 22.06.2014 at 04:41

作者: Meester, 22.06.2014 at 04:36

作者: Fockmeeard, 21.06.2014 at 21:59

作者: Goblin, 21.06.2014 at 19:36

Oh my fuckin god i wanna slap everyone who is comparing passageways to bugs. Are you retarded or just pretending to be stupid? ...As acquiesce said ...new players dont know about them ...so fuckin triple what??? I didnt know about walls once i started playing , i learned i didnt know troops can leave air transports but instead directly attacked cities with them i learned , i didnt know about passageways i fuckin learned and i had fun and sense of accomplishment by learning this things. morons compare goin trough walls with that??? Wls are suppose to be unpassable what would be the damn purpose of them if you can abuse a bug ...stop acting stupid people.


Since Acqui seems to be beating around the bush with this question, i'll ask you since you seem to feel strongly about this. If these passageways are indeed not a bug and are meant to be a part of the game, why are these passageways not included in the map? Everybody other than you and Acqui believes that passageways are a bug, just a bug that can be used in gameplay. Since it IS a bug, that is why everybody not knowing about it is a crucial element considering that in the rules, you are not allowed to exploit a bug that gives you an unfair advantage. The only way to keep things fair is if both players know how to exploit it.




So the passageway in Brittany, France is a legit canal.



So the Kiel passageway is a legit canal.



So the passageway in Sweden is a legit canal.

Did I miss any?

UK passageways to the west part of UK,Italy passageway to both of south parts,estonia pass to this lake,UK pass to east part of UK.




UK is just full of canals and rivers, but if you look closely you can find it.



I'm not sure which one in Italy you'r talking about.
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22.06.2014 - 07:39
作者: Meester, 22.06.2014 at 06:50

Yes you can but you can't in game because this passageway is not in the game this is AtWar by the way not CanalWar.


Well this is no passage way through France to get to Britain, but people found out about it and use it in the game.... I found out how to get to paris from the sea and yet Im banned, Then all the people using passageways should be banned.

As for Chess claim for bypassing walls, as I know there is no evidence that I did any of that
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22.06.2014 - 07:42
作者: Eagle_alt, 22.06.2014 at 07:39

Well this is no passage way through France to get to Britain, but people found out about it and use it in the game.... I found out how to get to paris from the sea and yet Im banned, Then all the people using passageways should be banned.

As for Chess claim for bypassing walls, as I know there is no evidence that I did any of that


Please recreate you attack on Paris from the English Channel again this time using a video recorder and legit means.
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22.06.2014 - 07:47
作者: Chess, 22.06.2014 at 07:45

The reason why you got banned for attacking Paris with naval units is simple.
Paris has no port in this game.
So how on earth should it be possible to get into Paris with sea units without using a bug?


How I forgot this one.
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22.06.2014 - 08:28
作者: Meester, 22.06.2014 at 07:00

作者: JUGERS2, 22.06.2014 at 04:41

作者: Meester, 22.06.2014 at 04:36

作者: Fockmeeard, 21.06.2014 at 21:59

作者: Goblin, 21.06.2014 at 19:36

Oh my fuckin god i wanna slap everyone who is comparing passageways to bugs. Are you retarded or just pretending to be stupid? ...As acquiesce said ...new players dont know about them ...so fuckin triple what??? I didnt know about walls once i started playing , i learned i didnt know troops can leave air transports but instead directly attacked cities with them i learned , i didnt know about passageways i fuckin learned and i had fun and sense of accomplishment by learning this things. morons compare goin trough walls with that??? Wls are suppose to be unpassable what would be the damn purpose of them if you can abuse a bug ...stop acting stupid people.


Since Acqui seems to be beating around the bush with this question, i'll ask you since you seem to feel strongly about this. If these passageways are indeed not a bug and are meant to be a part of the game, why are these passageways not included in the map? Everybody other than you and Acqui believes that passageways are a bug, just a bug that can be used in gameplay. Since it IS a bug, that is why everybody not knowing about it is a crucial element considering that in the rules, you are not allowed to exploit a bug that gives you an unfair advantage. The only way to keep things fair is if both players know how to exploit it.




So the passageway in Brittany, France is a legit canal.



So the Kiel passageway is a legit canal.



So the passageway in Sweden is a legit canal.

Did I miss any?

UK passageways to the west part of UK,Italy passageway to both of south parts,estonia pass to this lake,UK pass to east part of UK.




UK is just full of canals and rivers, but if you look closely you can find it.



I'm not sure which one in Italy you'r talking about.


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22.06.2014 - 09:50
 Acquiesce (版主)
作者: Fockmeeard, 21.06.2014 at 21:59

Since Acqui seems to be beating around the bush with this question, i'll ask you since you seem to feel strongly about this. If these passageways are indeed not a bug and are meant to be a part of the game, why are these passageways not included in the map? Everybody other than you and Acqui believes that passageways are a bug, just a bug that can be used in gameplay. Since it IS a bug, that is why everybody not knowing about it is a crucial element considering that in the rules, you are not allowed to exploit a bug that gives you an unfair advantage. The only way to keep things fair is if both players know how to exploit it.


I'm not beating around the bush I'm actually giving your question far more attention than it deserves. I'm just appalled that you can legitimately be voicing this opinion. I really can't wrap my head around it. Do you also think that moving land units from Germany to Denmark without a transport is a game exploit? All of your arguments lead me to this conclusion. I've been playing this game for more than 3 years and I've come across every glitch and bug and this is very obviously not one of them. It's common sense.

You've derailed a discussion about legitimate bug abuse and moderator accountability and turned into a discussion of canals. So here's what I suggest. Go to the bugs forum and report bug abuse. Say that the majority of AW is abusing the canal glitch and see how far you get with the admins.
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The church is near, but the road is icy... the bar is far away, but I will walk carefully...
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22.06.2014 - 10:03
作者: Acquiesce, 22.06.2014 at 09:50

I'm not beating around the bush I'm actually giving your question far more attention than it deserves. I'm just appalled that you can legitimately be voicing this opinion. I really can't wrap my head around it. Do you also think that moving land units from Germany to Denmark without a transport is a game exploit? All of your arguments lead me to this conclusion. I've been playing this game for more than 3 years and I've come across every glitch and bug and this is very obviously not one of them. It's common sense.

You've derailed a discussion about legitimate bug abuse and moderator accountability and turned into a discussion of canals. So here's what I suggest. Go to the bugs forum and report bug abuse. Say that the majority of AW is abusing the canal glitch and see how far you get with the admins.


>I derailed. Right. It takes more than one person to derail a thread. I just stated an opinion (which at the time was on-topic) and you among others decided to argue against it as if you were somehow offended by it. I just defended my position. Nobody gave a logical response, so it's obvious why we went in circles all the way up until now. The only person who actually provided facts and a good argument was Desu, who I talked with last night.
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